A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Ethnotech’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the Aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.”

 

 

Our Guests discussed:

April 2-20, 2025 Magic Theatre The Boiling, a tale of american nihilism tickets, wheelchair accessible

Joan Osato

SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant Applications:  sffilm.org/artist-development

Ethnohtec

May 22 Ethnohtec

https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/22/panel-strong-bamboo-3-part-1

Strong Like Bamboo

SF Library Koret Auditorium Free

https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/25/performance-strong-bamboo-3-part-2

 

Coming Up Next Transcript

 

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

 

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere of the boiling at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Eth-Noh-Tec’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.” So join us on APEX Express as we join some creative conversations.

 

Miko Lee: [00:01:17] Tonight on Apex Express, we have the collaborators behind Magic Theater and Campo Santo’s, world Premier of the boiling: a tale of American nihilism. Welcome playwright Sunhui Chang and video artist Joan Osato. 

 

Joan Osato: [00:01:30] Thank you for having us on, Miko. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:01:33] Yes. First I’m gonna start for each of you with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing Chinaka Hodges. And my question for each of you, and let’s start with Joan first, is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? 

 

Joan Osato: [00:01:49] I consider myself a child of immigrants in this country. My lineage Japanese, Japanese American by way of Hawai’i a lot of my lineage is carried by that diaspora, but also by my history at Youth Speaks for a couple of decades. And so I consider that my family also and Camp Santo. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:02:12] Yay. Love that. And then Joan, what legacy do you carry with you?

 

Joan Osato: [00:02:17] A legacy of resilience and I know how to farm. I like to think of myself as a gardener and a great farmer. so that’s the legacy I carry with me. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:02:29] Thank you so much, Joan. Sunhui, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:02:36] Well, I’m part of the diaspora, the Korean American diaspora that happened in the seventies. My family immigrated to the island of Guam in 1976, as part of developing the island of Guam. As, you know, the Korean diaspora at that time in the seventies, we were kind of shipped around the world a little bit, for our labor. There’s a huge Korean population of workers that also went to West Germany and other places, Guam is not as well known, but it was definitely part of that. So in 76, our family landed on the island of Guam. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:03:11] Wow, that’s so interesting. And then what about what legacy you carry with you? 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:03:16] I think my legacy I have to say is that definitely of the immigrant working class, you know, as with a Korean diaspora, there’s some things of, like the East Coast Koreans, as you may know, have a different history of being much more educated whereas kind of the west coast and the Korean diaspora during the seventies towards islands like Guam, we were much more working class. So that is my legacy. I have working class roots that, I never seem to be able to get away from and I don’t want to.

 

Joan Osato: [00:03:47] Shoot. That’s the same for me too, my working class roots.

 

Miko Lee: [00:03:51] So it sounds like you two have some commonalities there and that seem to have flowed over into the creation of this play. Sunhui can you talk about an overview of this brand New World premier, the boiling. 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:05] Simply put, it’s a story of a tracker and a tracer, a government team that was formed to track and trace down carriers of the virus called the Boiling. and it actually. starts out as a chase, but what we really dig into is more about, identity, home, what it means to be, what is home and what it means to be, at home, and also, about redemption, you know, through our lives, you know? So it’s multi-layered, so it’s hard to kind of explain in a log line. but it’s a chase story that kind of delves into the characters. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:04:40] And I understand this was inspired by a real news story. Can you tell us about that real news story? 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:46] Oh, yeah. the genesis of this we have to kind of go back to the beginning of the pandemic back to December, 2019. I had just finished a gallery installation in San Francisco and then at the end of that I flew back to Seattle. Now at that period of time, there was this talk that there’s this virus that’s in China. That might affect us, we’re not quite certain, but it could be something that could lead to a global pandemic, but we didn’t quite know at that time. But then when I landed in Seattle, March 17th, 2020 was the date that Governor j Insley shut down the state of Washington. So that is a big take ’cause, As you know, we all hunkered down at that point. And then in one of the hunkering down is of course, I was watching the news and one of the news story, happened to come across where they were talking about a Econo Lodge motel that the state of Washington had purchased to turn into a quarantine motel, a voluntary quarantine motel where people who, felt that they were infected could check themselves in, to be evaluated. So the story goes that two people had actually checked into this motel totally voluntarily, but one of them the morning after. And this is captured, with a surveillance video. We actually see this one person walking out of their room at the motel. We see them walk across the street to a gas station with a market. Now the surveillance actually then switches over to the gas station surveillance, which shows him walking to the gas mart, walking inside, making a purchase, and then actually walking out. And then we see another footage of the surveillance that’s going from the outside surveillance of the store. We actually see him, walk towards the bus stop, get on a bus. And then just the bus leaves and that is it. And the news story ends with that. They had no idea where this person drifted off to. and for me it just, it had this weird, eerie fascination that just grabbed me. and remember at that time, Seattle was such a hotbed for Covid. It was where the nursing home happened, where so many of the elderly had passed on, and we didn’t even wanna secondhand touch a surface, so there was a real heightened sense of alarm that was happening. So seeing this story of this potential infected person just drifting off. And then what made it eerie was that I wanted to see what followed up. So for days after I kept watching the news, what is the follow up? What happened? It was never brought on again. Never. Another mention I. and for me that actually made it even more eerie. So it really sat with me, to the point where I had to actually just write down the first words of my, the first line of my story, the boiling. And the first line was, “Carrier X stepped out of the tightness of his room and breathed deeply the soft drizzle of the Pacific Northwest to cool his body from the growing fever.” So those were the first words that I wrote. and then it was just kind of off to the races ’cause the way I write Miko is that I’m very much organic. I kind of set a story and then I become a vessel of the story. I don’t come to the story with agendas or anything of that nature. After the first sentence, it just kind of took a life of its own. So that’s it. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:08:18] That is amazing. I did not hear that story. and the real news story. That is wild. That would’ve sat with me too. Joan, had you heard of that story before being brought onto this project? 

 

Joan Osato: [00:08:29] Well, when we did a reading during the pandemic. I did hear parts of that story, but I think it’s also a story that a lot of us can relate to, because like here in the Bay Area, of course, we also experienced severe lockdown. Whereas in other parts of the country, I think that the type of lockdown, although being, you know, trying to be really safe for people also induces this sense of isolation and paranoia. And so wanting to get information about who’s getting affected and like, where’s it happening? I think that was all like kind of a mini obsession of like. Everyone who experienced the pandemic, you know what I mean? 

 

Miko Lee: [00:09:10] How do you think that pandemic has had an impact on theater and on audiences? 

 

Joan Osato: [00:09:16] Well on the most basic levels, you know, like what theaters are grappling with, just in terms of coming out of and recovering from pandemic, I think everybody understands that, you know, theater in general is struggling because of the changes that happened in terms of, Perhaps what people place importance on the isolation that we went through, the kind of, paranoia about being in groups of people and in space and in community together. And so, that affects, you know, theaters and you can, you can see that since the pandemic some have closed. But I also think that, the effects are also that, groups like The Magic or Campo Santo during the Pandemic, we never stopped working and we just figured out innovative ways to, you know, support artists, do radio plays, do, amalgamations of like filming. And so a lot of us became like very, very adept at different types of media that are theatrically based, like Sunhui’s play, but that we had to carry out, like online or, you know, through other types of media. 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:10:30] I just wanted to add on that is that, the pandemic, you know, there there was definitely things that really affected us as humans in such a negative way, but what I also found admiring was, with Joan and Camp Santo and the artists and trying to find creative ways of, still letting, having an outlet. it really was that the story of the boiling would not have taken place if artists such as Joan and Camp Santo. If they didn’t, if they weren’t able to pivot and make these kind of online transitions at the moment, such as doing readings and such, cause that’s how the story was first brought about. So, in many ways it was hard. But also I do appreciate these artists who have been able to kind of keep going and didn’t shut down and kept letting the creative creativity somehow flow. I so appreciated that. 

 

Joan Osato: [00:11:20] Yeah, it was definitely a beautiful thing. And then, you know, Miko, throughout the pandemic, you know, we would have like online viewings of our archives or we would sit with audience members, who were joining us and basically hang out for like three, four hours online.

So trying to create the space not only to kind of generate support for artists who are. Completely outta work, but also to, just connect us even though we were. You know, obviously under these conditions where we couldn’t see each other in person and it wouldn’t have been advisable for us to even try to gather, you know, because, I consider us, you know, in-inside of our community extremely vulnerable. So, you know, just grappling with that tension, was really hard. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:12:09] Yeah. And I kind of hear both of you saying that in those really tough times, there was this push to get more creative, to find more ways of reaching people and, and to look at ways that we can, um, innovate given that, and I’m wondering, given our current political climate where things are changing every hour now. I mean, the first Trump administration, it was kind of every week and now it feels like every hour a new kind of devastating thing is happening. I’m wondering how you both think theater can be used as a tool for social change. 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:12:41] For me Theater and, and really the arts, what I do love about it, is this really, and I kind of touch upon it with the story and such, and it really hit me during, COVID, during the pandemic, is that it’s really for me, what it does is listening.  I know as artists, we love telling our story. We love telling what we see, our interpretations and things like that. but I think what I have really come about with the arts is the fact that I like the other side of it is the listening part, for me with my collaborators, that I have to listen. You know, it’s not about just me talking, but just listening. So for me, the theater aspect of it and the art aspect of it is that I hope that, as we go through these tough times, what it really has us doing is listening to each other more. One of the things that I really feel in that way and appreciative of listening is the fact that without listeners, there’s no storytelling. Listening is really the foundation of our humanity. You know, I mean, just talking really gets us nowhere. What really makes us move forward collectively is listening.

 

Joan Osato: [00:13:50] Mm, Sunhui heard that. Yes, I heard that. [laughs] As far as theater and kind of responding to the moment. I think, you know, the type of theater that we embody is always speaking to politics is always speaking to, you know, the culture of the moment and especially it’s speaking, because a lot of Campo and the Magic’s work is like based inside of, theater companies that live, work, breathe, are about by and for the communities, like in the Bay Area right. So there’s just no way of separating the kind of politics from what happens like inside of these plays. For the boiling in particular though, I think there’s a lot of stuff that, that people can think about and here inside the play that will resonate with them. One, we’re, we’re talking about a hypothetical, but it’s not really a hypothetical situation about a pandemic, a very, harmful, very urgent, current conditions. You know, when there’s no CDC to have, get your information from when there’s no public health that’s functioning in this country, we can, we can see what happened during the last pandemic and just make that comparison and draw those comparisons, you know, what would happen in the next one. Right. also that, you know, to me and Sunhui, you can totally. speak to this, but to me, Carrier X, the person that represents is this kind of violence and nihilism that exists inside of the, you know, the current, you know, psyche or administration right at this moment. this real like. It’s definitely violent to the point of not caring whether people live or die and so I, you know, I think that’s very striking about the play and it happening right now as premiering it right now, because I think people can draw a lot of parallels between. Like this personality, this complete disorder that seems to be going on, like not only in American politic, but amongst the large population in America itself. You know what I mean? That kind of disregard. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:16:18] Joan, that is so interesting. I wonder if you both can talk a little bit more about Patient X as this kind of figure of narcissism and selfishness that we’re seeing that’s happening in our broader politics right now.

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:16:31] Yeah, Carrier X, he does, you know, he does kind of represent this nihilism of American nihilism, which to me it’s really historical and cultural. we could go all the way back to the nihilism of manifest destiny, feeling like we have something to do that it was even, maybe. God’s order, you know, a higher order that was given to us.

And we have to take on this task and finish the task at no matter what cost, right? By any means necessary in a way. and that nihilism for me, I. historical, but when I see it currently that happens now, is that I see nihilism in the fact that people want to cut off Medicaid, Medicare, these social programs that are not just help people actually are crucial and it’s really, it’s a survival. So for me, when I see that kind of disregard, yes, it’s not this overt violent nihilism, but I do find it to be so nihilistic in the damage that it does to all of us, you know? And I do find That this nihilistic violence, there’s two flip side to it. The people who are directly affected, and harmed by it, but also the people who carry it are out, who carry out these acts of nihilism they do get damaged as well. So for me, so yeah, the nihilism, it’s taken on a different life, but. It’s a part of America and it seems to continuously carry forward through our days. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:18:00] And Sunhui with the intentional characters, the lead being Korean American adoptee, and, the detective being a black woman, and then carrier X being white. Share with me a little bit about the racial element and your intention behind making those characters of those, ethnic backgrounds. 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:18:20] You know, there was no intention, as I said, I just write very organically. So there was never this thought of, oh, here’s the three characters. One’s gonna be a Korean adoptee, one’s gonna be a black homicide detective, and another’s gonna be a white carrier. It was never that I. It’s hard for me to explain the process, but those were the characters that just kind of naturally came out. for me, it just felt fitting to it. So, I don’t have agendas as I write, as I said, so there was none of that. It was just for me, as a vessel of the story, as a story was coming out, it was just. Oh yeah, this character is this, this character is that, and this one is this. so no intention. But, once those things came alive, then the story kind of, evolves around what’s, organically happening. So yeah, there wasn’t intent, but at the end of it all, of course, I go, oh, I see what has come about and how the story is so, In hindsight now going, oh yeah, I did this. for me, it feels right in the, in the fact that for me, this is America Miko. To me, I, I don’t write with an Asian American kind of pen, or, or a brown person pen for me, I actually first and foremost say I’m an American. There’s no way around it. and it’s simply put too, is that. I am an American. so for me, these characters are just. Natural. And when I know about me being American and knowing about American history, these characters just naturally fit in, you know? 

 

Miko Lee: [00:19:50] Yep. Thank you so much. I’ve read that you talk about new Americana theater. Mm-hmm. And also Joan, you were talking about how during the pandemic, you know, everybody’s learning new techniques, new ways of storytelling, just because everybody was forced to with the lockdown. Sunhui, can you talk more about what you believe New America Theater is all about? 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:20:12] For me, the reason why I kind of see it as new Americana theater, first off, ’cause it’s, it’s American, the stories that come out of me is very American. you know, and I recognize it. And for me, I, it is, this is part of the American fabric, so that’s why it’s called Americana.

And for me, I say it’s new. ’cause what’s new is the perspective that it’s coming out from. perspective, which brings on different characters, a different storyline, you know, different message. So yeah, that’s, that’s it for me when I refer to it as New America in the theater. It’s just that, that it’s, it’s an American tale that now we’ve been able to incorporate new voices into.

 

Miko Lee: [00:20:54] I noticed there’s a really large list of collaborators. Of course the two of you, but then there’s a lot of other people as well. Can you talk about that creative process, how you all were able to work together, how you made decisions about, oh, this is the part we’re gonna use film, this is the part we’re gonna use, movement.

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:21:11] Like I said, it’s very much organic. Our third major collaborator is Ellen Sebastian Chang. she is the director of the show, and when me, Joan and her, we first started delving into it, we did. It was just sitting down and talking a lot. Going through the scripts, the different skill sets that we bring in. And really it was through the dialogue miko and of us talking with each other, but also listening to each other. and that was a big part is that as we started listening to ourselves, we came out with this direction. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:21:47] And what would you both like the audience to walk away with after seeing the boiling?

 

Joan Osato: [00:21:52] I think, you know, as Sunhui talked about this, ritual of deep listening and so, the play doesn’t guide anyone towards some natural conclusion that they should have about, you know, it’s, it’s not saying you, you must believe this, it’s really leaving it up to the viewer, the listener, to draw their own conclusions. And, I think that, that people who come to this will be incredibly moved. I think that they will see a lot of parallels with what we’re going through now and what we’ve gone through. And examine there is a kind of shameful history that we all need to grapple with, whether we own it or not. You know, Sunhui had talked about manifest destiny and that being like one of the founding, you know, kind kinds of principles that this country is founded upon. And there are many, many others That I think the play touches on which give pause and, and give the people who are engaging with this, room to think and reexamine their own actions in the world and how they approach it.

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:23:02] I’ll just mention as an aside, you know, some of the things that we’re looking at is. Our disconnect from the natural world and how that has impacted the natural world. Right.  I think Joan is spot on in, in that about, yeah, first and foremost, I do find this so important once again to say about listening. I do. I, that is the big thing that I would love is that for us to, if we really wanna truly have dialogues, and especially with people who we disagree with, and there is a lot of disagreement in this world right now. and for me, yeah, to, Get us back to a place where we could really listen to each other and not be in such a place where all we wanted to do is kind of say what we have to say. It’s almost this thing of, oh, you know, the other has to listen, the other has to listen. And I really would like it that it becomes kind of more inward that we all say, Hey, it is time for me to listen. And then of course just the fact that when, as we listen to each other, what I do find and what I hope that others find as well, is that we’re much more connected and we have so many things that tie us together than separate.

 

Miko Lee: [00:24:19] Well, thank both of you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Is there anything else you wanna add?

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:24:24] Just one thing, Miko, one of the elements of this play, is this natural world with birding and I would love to just, one of the big inspiration is that it’s just a quote from Emily Dickinson and the quote is, “hope is the thing with feathers.” For me, I would love for people to kind of sit with that and think about that and what that means for us as human beings in relationship to the natural world, you know, and the importance of that.

 

Miko Lee: [00:24:52] Oh, that’s such a beautiful visual image. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate both of you for sharing your time with me. 

 

Joan Osato: [00:24:59] Thank you, Miko. 

 

Sunhui Chang: [00:25:00] Thank you Miko 

 

Miko Lee: [00:25:01] The Boiling is a brand new play, and it’s a story of a Korean American adoptee Brian, who’s a virologist from the Midwest, and a former homicide Detective v, a black woman who lives in the Pacific Northwest, and they’re partnered to do this trace and track from north to south. They’re following David, a white nihilistic carrier of a feverish virus called the Boiling. This world Premier Show opens to the magic theater and runs from April 2nd through April 20th. You can get more information about this show, including links to buy tickets at our show notes on kpfa.org/programs/apexexpress.

 

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:25:42] Next we’ll listen to an excerpt from The Camp, the first opera on the Japanese American Concentration camps during World War II. The camp premiered from February 22nd to March 2nd, 2025 at the JACCC Aratani Theater in Los Angeles. Composed by Daniel Kessner, who combines modern classical with Japanese instruments, A libretto by Lionelle Hamanaka, directed by Diana Wyenn, with Associate Director John Miyasaki, 11 singers and a 22 piece orchestra conducted by Steve Hofer. The incidents in The Camp Opera were drawn from different camps where over 126,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned to see the many Japanese American groups that supported this project, including JANM, DENSHO and Raf Shimpo see the camp opera.com and if you know a place where The Camp can be performed near you, please contact the campopera.com/support. 

 

MUSIC

 

Miko Lee: [00:27:53] Welcome to Apex Express. I’m so glad to have Eth-Noh-Tec once again, we get Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and Nancy Wang.

 

Nancy Wang: [00:28:03] Yay. Yes. Hi. Hello. So glad to be here with you Miko.

 

Miko Lee: [00:28:07] We have been friends and colleagues for, it feels like a hundred billion years. The times that we’re in are so complicated right now. But I just wanna first start with the question I often ask people, which is for each of you to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

 

Nancy Wang: [00:28:27] Well, I am Chinese American, and I am fifth generation on my mother’s side. And. So we go all the way back to 1850 when our family first came on a junk boat and started the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area. 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:45] And I am, half Japanese, half Filipino, born in San Francisco, raised in Concord, California, and living in the Bay Area for all my life.

 

Miko Lee: [00:28:50] And what legacy do you carry with you? 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:58] Well, I guess the identity I have as an Asian American, Japanese, and Filipino, um, I embrace all of that. The legacy is, as an artist, a performer. I’ve dedicated my life to creating works that reflect an Asian American consciousness, social, political, cultural. Both traditional works as well as new modern stories and music as well. 

 

Nancy Wang: [00:29:25] And I was also a psychotherapist, so my work in the arts, whether it’s dance, which I started out being a dancer and then a playwright, and then storytelling. I always weave in the healing aspect of what we all need to do in our communities. And so I use my art to also bring solace and bring celebration and bring, Depth and and the breadth of who we are as Asian Americans, as human beings, as part of this world, this country, then this city, so that we can celebrate who we are together.

 

Miko Lee: [00:30:04] Thank you for that. I hear you talking about activism, Asian American history, who we are and healing. I’m wondering if you could give me an update about what you’re working on right now.

 

Nancy Wang: [00:30:14] Well, we have several things in the pipeline. I, for one, just finished writing and has now published Red Altar, which is the story of my ancestors. Three generations are followed in this book, about how they established the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area. All the ways they had to reinvent themselves as laws were passed against them. The people try to get rid of them. And it’s really a story of courage and determination and persistence, ingenuity and obviously success. Because I’m here. So I’m gonna be doing some more readings and that can be found on our webpage. Right. And Robert, 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:30:55] I am focusing on archiving our work and after working with Nancy and creating Eth-Noh-Tec for the last 43 plus years, we have developed over 200 stories, and we put them on stage.

We’ve written them, some of them are now being written as a compendium of stories. These are Neo-traditional folk tales and myths from Asia. And, people don’t know much of this, but I am also an artist, so I’m creating illustrations that depict these stories. That’s one project.

 

Nancy Wang: [00:31:23] Yeah, that’s our next book. but what we’re really excited about is our second Strong Like Bamboo, stories of resilience in the era of Asian American hate, but it’s really broadened beyond Asian American because this year on May 22nd, will be a gathering of Latino and Asian artists and musicians, storytellers, and activists to just sit around and really share our stories, share our music, share our concerns, and to build bridges with each other because it, we will need to increase, our coalitions during this era. It’s gotten worse, so we really need to come together.

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:08] and we titled it strong like bamboo because of the Asian anecdote about, you know, one bamboo can snap, but together binding many bamboo together we’re much stronger. So it’s a call out to the community to bring all of our constituents and broaden that so that we are strong, as people of color. 

 

Nancy Wang: [00:32:25] And of course we’re gonna have food, which always brings us all together. But also bamboo can bend. Without breaking, so that’s on a Thursday, May 22nd. But on May 25th, I have curated four other storytellers to tell their stories of their racist experiences and how they came through it to a healing place. 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:48] There’s a gathering of Asian American storytellers, both from the Chicago area and also from the west coast. 

 

Nancy Wang: [00:32:53] And there’ll be a panel so they can ask questions and we can have discussions. But after that, the people in the audience will have the opportunity to break up into small groups of three in which they get to share their own stories, their own concerns, and that’s really the whole thing is about inspiring people to come through what they’re going through and coming out, on the other side with some hope and healing.

Because when we share our stories, we lift that particular burden of, say our story about our racist experience. We lifted off our own shoulders and we get to share it. With someone who’s listening with compassion and we don’t feel alone anymore. It’s really a powerful, powerful way to find community connection, relation, and strength.

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:33:45] And we’ll have also in both of those events, resources in earlier years, I was an Asian American songwriter and did a lot of songs of not just identity, but of unity. I’m also gonna be singing a theme song called Bamboo, which is part of the title and also, a work by Chris Jim, famous of the Chris and Joe Asian American Duet from years ago. the one song we’re still here, though it was written 30, 40 years ago. It’s still pertinent to what’s going on now, especially declaring that America is a multiracial, multiethnic, texture of society.

 

Nancy Wang: [00:34:20] and, in 2026 we’re gonna bring on, African-American and Euro-American, storytellers also, so that we really have a multicultural representation of all who we are and how we still will need to come together. I hope things will be better by 2026, but who knows? 

 

Miko Lee: [00:34:39] Thank you so much for sharing about how storytelling can really be a tool for social change. Is there anything else you wanna share with our audience?

 

Nancy Wang: [00:34:47] Yeah. please come to our strong like Bamboo on May 22nd and 25th is gonna be at the San Francisco Public Library Main Library, both are free to the public May 22nd the Thursday at May 22nd, it’s gonna be in Hispanic room, 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:05] and what time?

 

Nancy Wang: [00:35:06] Six to seven-thirty. And on Sunday it’ll be in the presentations, the performances in the panel will be in the Koret auditorium, and then small groups will convene in the Hispanic room, which is right next door, and it’s got elevators. So no problem, in getting there. Plus Bart and the bus is, it’s easy to get there. And so that’s what we wanted so that people could feel welcome. 

 

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:35] And that second show on Sunday Strong like Bamboo will feature our guest artist storytellers, professional storytellers. One of them being a local Eleanor Clement Glass who’s half African American and Filipino, talking about her experiences. And then also, two guest artists from Chicago, one of them being Lillian Ji, who is a Japanese American hapa. Then third is, Archie Jun, who is a Thai American gay comedian storyteller who is a total riot. we are really wanting to blend many of our communities together to hear this talent Yes. And to deal with the topics. 

 

Nancy Wang: [00:36:10] So we would love for the LGBTQ plus community to come out as well and support him and feel proud because all of the stories will, will really showcase our strength and our ability to deal with these things and come out the other side. So we are hoping that in the process of telling our pain, but coming out, on the other side, that it will be an inspiration for everyone to keep going during this difficult, very difficult time. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:36:41] Thank you so much for joining me today. 

 

Nancy Wang: [00:36:44] You’re welcome. Thank you

 

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:46] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.

 

Miko Lee: [00:37:05] Welcome Jiehae Park to Apex Express. I am so excited to talk to you about the world premier of the aves opening at Berkeley Repertory Theater, May 2nd through June 8th. Welcome to Apex Express. 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:37:19] Hi, Miko. It’s so nice to be here. Thanks for having me. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:37:22] I wanna just first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

 

Jiehae Park: [00:37:31] Hmm. I love the phrasing of that question. I was born in Korea and I came to the states when I was three years old with my parents who came to go to graduate school. And my father’s family fled the north during the war. And my mother’s family had always been in the south. And I definitely think that who they are and where they came from is a big part of who I am and the questions that I think of. And in a lot of ways, not just, racially and culturally, but also in terms of their interests. They’re both scientists. This play deals, I hope thoughtfully with questions of identity and consciousness, that I’ve always been interested in. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:38:18] And what legacy do you feel like you carry with you from them?

 

Jiehae Park: [00:38:22] Hmm. I mean, I write a lot about immigrants. This play isn’t specifically about that, but in a lot of my previous work, I, I have. have written a lot about immigrants and I feel like my parents, you know, they came to this country when they were in their twenties. They didn’t speak the language. They came from a generation of folks and at that time in the country where they were really, they had to be a certain way to survive. And I think that, intensity of work ethic, and the things that you also have to give up in order to get to where you think you wanna be, that question is, is part of their legacy to me. It’s a, it’s a gift and also something that, like a lot of other immigrants, I think I’m always sort of turning over in my mind and, and trying to look at from other angles. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:39:12] Thank you for sharing. I’m wondering if you can talk to us about, first this title of your, world Premier, the aves. Where did this title come from? What is it about? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:39:23] So the title is the Latin word for Birds. And, the play there’s a mystery that sort of unspools early on. So without, without giving too much away we see this old couple on a bench, on a park bench, and they have clearly been together for a long time and they are having a conversation that seems like a very ordinary conversation. And over the course of the first scene, we soon learn that they are discussing, doing something that will have ramifications throughout the rest of the play. And the aves is a word that I loved because of the association with birds. There, there are birds that make an appearance in this play, in both pedestrian and unexpected ways, in mysterious ways, and hopefully humorous ways. and then the connotation also of Ave Maria and this, this feeling of the sacred, which also infuses the play, which has a lot of humor, but also when I was writing it, I was thinking a lot about nature and the passage of time and this feeling of awe that I get when engage with nature. And I think that word also has those connotations for me. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:40:46] And that sounds like a mystery that people need to come to find out more about. Can you tell us what inspired this work? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:40:54] I used to live on the northside of Central Park in Harlem, and I had this tiny, tiny little window that looked out, onto the north side of the park. And every day I would sit down to write and through my tiny window, I would see the same man sitting on this bench every day. And as the seasons changed and the leaves changed and the light changed, but still every morning there was the consistency of seeing the same person. And I think I I was thinking a lot about the passage of time and of nature shifting And I think subconsciously I was thinking about getting older myself. This was a time before I had children, but I was starting to become aware of my parents aging and generationally My peers, also our parents were aging and, and starting to have, you know, the complications and the beautiful things that can come with that. So I think all of that was a big soup in my subconscious. and I sat down and I wrote the first scene very quickly and then. I didn’t know exactly what the rest of the play was gonna be, but I knew structurally that the first scene would be this old couple and that the second scene would be, a slightly different configuration of, of bodies. But that was hard to be so mysterious, um, and that the nex scene would be a different specific configuration of body. So I was thinking about the age of the bodies that you’re watching and the story evolved from that. And I guess I should say that the play is set in a moment sort of best after now.

So it’s not the present, but it’s not the distant future. It’s certainly not like hard sci-fi by any means, but I think it uses some tools of speculative fiction. To ask questions that hopefully are illuminating about ourselves now. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:42:59] Interesting. Did you ever talk with the man in the park that inspired this piece?

 

Jiehae Park: [00:43:05] You know, it’s so funny. After the first couple of weeks of watching him, I realized he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:43:18] Wow. That’s amazing. 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:43:20] And I think that that’s also something that. I had been thinking a lot about at the time this question of presence and attention, especially in New York, which is a city that is so loud. I mean, I love, I love New York and there’s so many things that I love about New York, but it is such a loud city and it is hard to hear yourself think and, and the quality of attention in any. I was gonna say in any city, but in like any moment in our extremely chaotic world, I mean, especially now, that sort of quiet present quality of attention that I think is so beautiful and so rare, and I associate with, I’m not religious, but, but when I was a kid, I was, and this, this quality of, of sacred space, I think I was, I was really curious about that. And at the time, I think I had also that year gone on a silent meditation retreat. so trying to bring that quality of attention to my ordinary life as a urban citizen, I think was also part of the experience of writing the play. But yeah, he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before. And so this question of what do we notice and what do we need to shift in ourselves to notice what’s in front of us and has been in front of us. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:44:44] I am hearing you talk about a sense of presence and, and time passing. I’m wondering if that is what you want the audience to walk away with or are there other things that you’re interested in provoking with this piece? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:44:57] As an audience member, when I go to any play, I always hope to leave a little bit different than how I entered and. That shift can be really subtle. In fact, for me as an audience member, sometimes it feels more profound when it is subtle. So on, on like at like a really baseline level. We’ve been having a lot of conversations with the design team about how to create this. Quality of space that feels different from the mundane so that when we enter the space of the theater, so for our body chemistry changes and that we are being asked by the play to lean in and pay attention perhaps in a way that we’re not asked to pay attention, in, in the world outside of that room. And to be able to request that of an audience and share that with an audience. Together, I think is such a beautiful thing. And, and one of my favorite things about any collective experience when, when it all feels like we’re breathing together. And my hope is that that’s something that we can create, at a, like a biochemical level in our bodies, on a sort of more. Intellectual, emotional, philosophical level. I think there are questions that the play is asking about, what makes us, us and memory and the ability of a person and a relationship to change over a long period of time. And over the course of events that. May require forgiveness. those were certainly things that I was thinking about while I was writing it. So there’s also that, that more character relational level of questioning that, that I think, will resonate with people, in different ways depending on where they are in their lives. And then I think especially because, you know, there’s a lot of conversation about sandwich generation now, like folks, I. Who have dealt with aging themselves or aging parents and, the complexities and possibilities that can create. I think that there’s another layer of the play that stirs up some of those questions as well.

 

Miko Lee: [00:47:04] Speaking of complexities and possibilities, I understand that you studied music and that you’re also an actor and then you also write for Marvel’s Runaways. Can you share a little bit about how these different elements impact you as a writer, as a creator? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:47:20] Yeah, so I started as an actor, which I think a lot of people do, mostly because it’s the most accessible thing. Like you can audition for a play. You can’t sort of audition to write a play. you can just write a play. But that, I think, came later for me. I don’t really perform a ton anymore, although I did love it. and then the shift to television happened eight or so years ago. There’s a big movement of playwrights moving into television, during peak tv. And they’re very different. there is some shared similarity in storytelling instincts and craft. but the mediums are just really different, so I feel like I get very different things from, from all of them. I feel like I learned being a performer for a long time. As an artist, it’s just getting to bump up against people who you think are fascinating and learn from them what you like and what you don’t like, and who you wanna be and who you don’t wanna be. and from tv I think I learned, To not be so precious. It takes a really long time for me to write a play. and I used to think, oh, I have to go into the woods and like be silent for a month and then like a play will emerge. And like sometimes it happens and it, that feels like a blessing when it does. But in TV, because there’s so much money at stake and so much time pressure that you know, when something’s due, it’s just due and you turn it in. And if it’s not perfect, you just deal with it and you make it as good as you can. And I think that there’s a certain amount of shedding of perfectionism, which has been really healthy for me. but I do. Love the theater for the ability to spend a long period of time contemplating something and, and making it with a group of people who feel inspiring and we’re all moving towards the same thing. and I think there’s a little bit more space or a lot more space in the theater for things that may feel. mysterious or more open. whereas in television especially these days with the sort of decline of peak TV, there’s an expectation of propulsion. Like overt propulsion, if that makes sense. That is not a criticism like, you know, I also love TV. but it is, it’s like the pace of it is different and the ask of it is different than the ask of a play and and the baseline thing of just, you’re not in the same room with the people experiencing it that is so special in theatre. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:49:45] How do you go about shifting that mindset for that kind of speed of TV that you’re describing versus the kind of longer meditative state of creating theater? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:49:55] Yeah, I mean, I think there’s hopefully a two-way exchange. Because I also think that bringing some of those qualities of thoughtfulness and deliberation to the world of TV within the container, within the boundaries of it, can be incredibly useful. And ultimately a lot of the things that delight people, delight people regardless of the format.

So that, like, that feeling of inevitable but surprising, like that’s something that is of tremendous value in all mediums, right? I think for me personally, when I write a play. I try to make a space in my life that is a little more still. and I have a toddler now, so that’s challenging. But in a way, working in television has been really helpful for that because, you know, I don’t have five hours in the middle of the day to, you know, be with myself and listen to the trees. I maybe have like 30 minutes, but to try to drop into that as. quickly and without angst, without like working myself up about it.

’cause that’s a waste of time. That’s been a useful lesson to learn. Whereas working in television can feel a lot less lonely also than playwriting because in a writer’s room, most shows in the states are written in the writer’s room, there are few exceptions, and you’re with a group of people. And so there’s a sort of energetic exchange happening there that in a play only happens much, much later when you’re in rehearsal and ideally in production. there’s a sort of joyful energy and exchange that can happen in a writer’s room, both when you’re breaking the story and then ultimately when you’re in production. And there’s like many, many more people involved. And there’s the crew and the cast and you know, all of the technical departments and producers. I feel like you mentioned, Code switching earlier. And, humans are so adaptable and I think we automatically sort of shift our brain chemistry and our body chemistry in response to the environment around us. sometimes very consciously, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes both. so I think a certain amount of that is just, okay, these are the given circumstances. And then, you become who you need to be in that space.

 

Miko Lee: [00:51:54] Thank you for sharing. Okay. I have one last TV question, which is that given that everybody’s in this writing room together and you’re, there’s kind of a speed that’s attached to it, do you feel like things get thrown out more quickly and with less kind of emotion attached to it than in theater? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:52:10] It’s possible. I think it depends on the person. So I just worked on season four of the morning show last year. And there is a real need on that show because it deals with the news to be absorbing what’s happening in the world and shifting the story based on that.

And so that there has to be a sort of lightness around that. So in that kind of environment, absolutely. but I’ve also been in other rooms where someone got really attached to an idea, and maybe it was clear that that idea wasn’t gonna work out, but there was, there was still like something, in it that wanted to be held onto and, and it may be hung on for a long time.

And that process. Also could have happened, like that exact parallel process could have happened in a play. And actually in neither of the situation, is that necessarily a bad thing? Like is there something about that idea that maybe is not the idea itself, like the emotional core underneath it or the deep, deep idea underneath it that is useful? That even if the manifestation of the thing doesn’t continue, if the manifestation gets thrown out, but like the real thing that was underneath it was important gets folded in in some unexpected way. I don’t think it’s a bad thing either way. It just is the peculiarities of any particular process.

 

Miko Lee: [00:53:22] And it sounds like it’s about the people too, right? 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:53:25] Yes, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I’ve certainly been in that book where I’m like, oh, I really think it’s like this. It’s gotta be this, it’s gotta be this. And then, you know, two years later, I look at the draft, I’m like, oh, no, no, no. It, it is definitely not that. Like let me take that entire thing out. and it just was in that particular moment, I wasn’t ready for whatever reason to let go of that idea. And that’s okay. I am now, and then it moves on. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:53:48] We’re circling back to the beginning of the conversation about the aves, which is about presence and being in that moment. And where you are in that moment might be, no, this isn’t right. And then years later you say, oh yeah, that wasn’t right. Or that was right.

 

Jiehae Park: [00:54:03] Yeah, exactly, exactly. To listen to yourself is a, you know, I, I am, I’ve been doing this for a long time now and, that is still something that I feel like I always have to learn, that I think just is a human.

 

Miko Lee: [00:54:15] Yes. The perennial lesson of Yes, intuition. I’m wondering if you could tell our audience why they should go see the aves. 

 

Jiehae Park: [00:54:24] My hope is that if you are curious about a certain kind of experience and attention in the theater, that you’ll accept our invitation to this play, which is an unusual play. I don’t think that everyone should see this play, just like, I don’t think everyone should see any particular work of art, but if the things that we’ve been discussing, if the sort of vibe that you’re getting from this conversation resonates with you, then the experience of seeing this play with a group of people who are also curious about that kind of experience may be something. That is enjoyable for you and would probably therefore also be enjoyable for that audience to be together with you and for the play to be together with you in that space. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:55:17] Thank you so much for spending time chatting with us. Folks can see the aves at Berkeley rep May 2nd through June 8th. Thank you so much, Jiehae.

 

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:26] For you Asian American film makers out there: SFFILM announced a new annual filmmaking grant in partnership with Cedar Road. The SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant is dedicated to fostering bold, original feature film projects that amplify Asian and Asian American perspectives on screen. In Korean, iyagi means “story”—a word that embodies the heart of this grant’s mission: to champion storytelling as a powerful bridge connecting people across cultures and perspectives. A link to the grant application will be available in our show notes. 

 

Miko Lee: [00:55:58] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. 

 

APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.