Two books recently landed with the Good Food Team at approximately the same time. Both were memoirs about growing up in families where work, and therefore life, centered around a family-run Chinese restaurant. Rachel Phan‘s book is Restaurant Kid: A Memoir of Family and Belonging. Curtis Chin‘s book is Everything I Learned in a Chinese Restaurant: A Memoir. 

As we explored each book, we realized that we wanted to hear both of their voices in a joint conversation about growing up in such a particular space, where they learned to carve out their own identities amid their family’s expectations. 

Evan Kleiman: Thank you both so much for joining us. I’m so happy to have both of you here.

Curtis Chin: Happy to be here. 

Rachel Phan: Thank you for having me.

Evan Kleiman: What part of China are your families from? When and where did they emigrate to the United States and to Canada, respectively? 

Curtis Chin: My family actually came in the late 1800s, as I say in the book. They went from Canton, China to Canton, Ohio before realizing there weren’t actually Chinese people there, and then moving up to Detroit by the late 1800s. The auto industry was just kicking off at that time, and they tried to get a job working in the factories, but there was discrimination so they went into the laundry business. From there, they opened a grocery store in the ’20s, and then finally, the first Chinese restaurant in the family, sometime in the ’30s. They’re from the south, so it’s southern Cantonese cuisine.

Curtis Chin (sucking his thumb) with his grandfather and older brothers. His great-great-grandfather left Guangzhou, China for Canton, Ohio in the late 1800s. Photo courtesy of Curtis Chin.

Evan Kleiman: And Rachel?

Rachel Phan: My family has a bit of an interesting history. My family, like Curtis’s, is originally from Canton but during the 1930s right before World War II, the Japanese invaded, and my family actually fled China to go to Vietnam. So my parents were both born and raised in Haiphong, Vietnam, and of course, we know that there was also a war in Vietnam. So they grew up during a time of war, and once that ended in 1975 and the country was dealing with the aftermath of that, they fled as boat people. Spent two years in a Hong Kong refugee camp and then eventually landed in Canada in 1981.

Evan Kleiman: Where in Canada did they land? And how long was it before the restaurant was part of your lives?

Rachel Phan: They landed in a small town in the province of Ontario called Leamington. It’s one of the most southern towns in Canada, it’s actually not too far from Detroit, and they made ends meet for about 10 years, doing a lot of jobs that no one else wanted, like digging for worms and working at the mushroom farm. After 10 years, my dad met a man who was a landlord, and he said, “Hey, I have this empty business that was a cafe 15 minutes away. Would you be interested in starting a Chinese-Canadian restaurant?” So we started our restaurant in 1991.

Evan Kleiman: Curtis, did you spend a lot of your childhood in the restaurant? Were you going there after school, before school? Were you parked there, like the baby being babysat by the business itself?

Curtis Chin: Oh, yeah, we grew up in that restaurant. We had a big back kitchen that we could play in when all the adults were working. Obviously, we did spend most of the time there during the summers and then weekends. That’s where I have my strongest memories because outside of school, that’s where we were at. We were at the restaurant because my second cousins were there. It was a great place to grow up, hanging out with my entire family.

Curtis (left) with older brother Calvin and little sister Cindy in the back kitchen of their parents’ restaurant in Detroit’s Chinatown. Photo courtesy of Curtis Chin.

Evan Kleiman: For you, it sounds like it was a bit of a haven and a playground, almost. Was that the same for you, Rachel, or was it more like a straightjacket or something in between?

Rachel Phan: I think because my circumstances were a little different, just because I am the baby of my family by quite a large age gap. My sister is nine years older than me and my brother is seven years older than me, so they were already working pretty much every weekend and every day at the restaurant, and I, as a kindergartner, didn’t really have anyone to play with. For me, I always describe the experience as never being alone but always being pretty lonely. A lot of my life was living on the periphery, trying not to get in the way, trying not to get yelled at, talking to customers when they were cashing out, and just trying to cling to those moments of interaction because everyone of my family was so busy working,

Rachel, at age 5, clings to her mother at the first May May Inn. In the background sits John the Tailor, a familiar face in the early years of the restaurant. Photo courtesy of Rachel Phan.

Evan Kleiman: How did each of your family’s restaurants fit into the larger community? Did you feel like you were a part of something larger, or did you feel marginalized within the restaurant? 

Curtis Chin: Detroit is a very segregated city in so many ways, not just Black and White, but rich and poor, Christian and non-Christian. It was really interesting. But we had a very, very small Chinatown. And by small, I mean, I think we had five restaurants and maybe two grocery stores. But our restaurant was, in some ways, like the granddaddy, because it was open for so long, and because it was literally, physically the center of Chinatown, it was on the corner. So I always felt like that was a safe space. 

The way I sort of talk about it growing up, was that the ’80s was a very difficult time for Detroit. The auto industry was struggling. We had crack cocaine. We had AIDS. I knew five people murdered by the time I was 18 years old. But despite that, we had this fabulous Chinese restaurant where my parents were able to raise me and my siblings and give us these awesome opportunities in life. So I always felt like that restaurant was my safe space. Like you said, I felt like I could be myself. It was my identity. I didn’t have any, I don’t know, trauma or whatever. I feel like I had the best childhood growing up in Detroit thanks to this restaurant. 

Evan Kleiman: And what about you, Rachel?

Rachel Phan: I think it’s a mix. My hometown is super small. When I was growing up, it was only 5,000 people, and my family’s restaurant was one of only two Chinese restaurants. I think the community welcomed us in that they liked coming and loved our food and they supported our business. But on the other hand, I grew up always feeling like an outlier because no one else looked like me. And through the course of writing my book, I dug up some census data. 

When I was growing up, I think in 1998, there were only 15 Chinese people in total in my town. My family is five people, so my family was a third of the Chinese community in my town. Growing up as the only racialized person, it was challenging. I didn’t really know who I was, and people seem to have expectations about who I should be based on me being Chinese. So on one hand, the business was welcomed but as a Chinese person, I didn’t feel like I was accepted.

The newspaper announcement of the Phan family’s big move: relocating May May Inn, which was named after Rachel, to a new location a few blocks from the original. Photo courtesy of Rachel Phan.

Evan Kleiman: What about you, Curtis? Did you have that sense when you were in school that you were othered, or were you happy as a clam with your friends?

Curtis Chin: As little kids, we learn how to adapt, right? So the first schools I went to were majority Black and there are different ways that you interact that way with Black and White kids there, when it’s a little bit more racially mixed. But when we moved to a neighborhood that was 98% white, that actually was a little bit more challenging for me, because it wasn’t just the racial element, it was probably more the class element. We were working class, and we were moving into this area where people had college degrees, parents were working for the auto industry. So that was probably the bigger challenge for me. 

One of the stereotypes they have about Asians is that we’re not very loyal to America. So I said, I’m going to be the most patriotic American possible. So I became what was known as the Asian Alex P. Keaton, if that makes sense to people. I became this young Republican, and that was my way of adapting. I was senior class president, President of the National Honor Society. I started the Young Republican Club, Students Against Smoking. Margaret Thatcher was my imaginary girlfriend. I’ve changed. I’m no longer that person. But I think as kids, we all try to fit in the best we can, and that was my strategy of fitting in with all these white, upper middle class kids. 

Evan Kleiman: What about you, Rachel? Did you feel like you had to put on a facade and code switch to navigate your way through school? 

Rachel Phan: Oh, 100%. I think the entirety of my childhood was all about cozying up to whiteness and conformity. So many of us have the classic lunch story where we bring a meal in for lunch to school, and the kids wrinkle their noses and they’re like, “Yuck, what is that?” I would bring noodles and spare ribs, and my classmates would just be aghast by what I was eating. I remember going home and saying, “Mom, you can’t make me that anymore.” Then I spent the rest of my elementary school years eating sad Lunchables and refusing to speak Cantonese, trying to master English, watching and loving all the things my white classmates were consuming. Although at the time, it’s not like there were a lot of Asians in media anyway. But yeah, so much of my childhood, and even my young adulthood, was trying to assimilate and fit in as best as I can by being what everything else that my classmates and friends were modeling for me.

Evan Kleiman: I’d love to talk a little bit about the food itself in the restaurants. Curtis, I understand that your grandmother had an extremely famous egg roll recipe. Can you talk about the role that egg rolls had in the restaurant and what the secret ingredient was? Did you ever help make them?

Curtis Chin: I tried, but I would always snack on the different parts before she could finish them. Actually, at my presentations, I always make people guess how many egg rolls they think we sold in the 65 years that we owned the restaurant. Do you want to take a quick guess?

Evan Kleiman: Oh, my gosh, it would have to be close to a million or millions, wouldn’t it?

Rachel Phan: I’m scared to guess

Curtis Chin: We sold over 10 million egg rolls. That’s how popular they were. And my mom and my grandmother and my aunties made them all. What I think was special about them is that they made everything fresh, even the skin and the sauce. A lot of restaurants will just buy pre-made wonton skins, which tend to be a little thick. But when you make your own skin, it’s really, really thin. So what happens is that you really taste the stuffing much more. You’re not tasting all breading or skin outside. 

So they were just really, really delicious egg rolls but the secret ingredient actually, is just peanut butter. I later found out that this is something that’s more common in the Midwest compared to, say, the East Coast or West Coast, in terms of egg rolls. It’s something that we got because our original chef back in 1940 was from Chicago, and they started using peanut butter in Chicago. If you go to places around the Midwest of the United States, a lot of them will actually use that ingredient.

On his book tour, Curtis Chin visited Chinese restaurants, interviewing owners who shared their stories. Photo by Michelle Li, Studio Plum Photography.

Evan Kleiman: Do you make them now? Do you miss them?

Curtis Chin: No, I’ve had so many people ask but it takes too long. It takes like, two days to make them. And when you make them, you have to make like hundreds of them because they just take so long. But I’ve had so many people ask me about them that I think if I sold egg rolls and included a free copy of my book, I would probably sell more books. I get so many requests for that, so maybe someday.

Evan Kleiman: Rachel, is there an iconic dish from your family’s restaurant that you knew was going to be on every single table?

Rachel Phan: I’m sorry, I am dying to try this egg roll. I want to try it so bad. I was not expecting the peanut butter twist. For us, because we grew up and we’re in a very small, predominantly white town, our customers love chicken balls. They love Canton chow mein. Pretty much anything deep-fried is a big favorite for our regulars. For us, the egg rolls, too, are very popular. I think I asked my parents a few months ago how many they make, and they make around 1,000 egg rolls every week. We’re in a very small town so that gives you some insight about how many egg rolls are going out the door. 

Evan Kleiman: I have to ask you about the chicken balls. I feel like after watching a lot of Chinese takeout in the UK on TikTok, the idea of chicken balls is much more a UK thing than it is a US thing. Can you describe what they are?

Rachel Phan: It’s chunks of chicken breast that are just breaded and deep-fried. Then you eat it with my dad’s homemade sweet and sour sauce. A lot of people pair it with pork fried rice or another fried rice. But yeah, I didn’t realize it was not common. 

Curtis Chin: It sounds like it came from Britain, right? Maybe through Canada. We didn’t have that in Detroit, and I don’t think I’ve seen it anywhere else in the US. Interesting.

Rachel Phan grew up in a Canadian town where only 15 residents were Chinese, making her five-person family a third of the Chinese population. Photo courtesy of Lula King Photo & Film.

Evan Kleiman: Me neither. In our Chinese American restaurants, I don’t think the chicken ball is a thing. You are representing a unique tradition, Rachel. 

Rachel Phan: I had no idea because here in southwestern Ontario in Canada, it’s such a mainstay.

Evan Kleiman: So what was the most important thing you learned in a Chinese restaurant? 

Curtis Chin: When you’re a little kid, oftentimes your parents will say, “Don’t talk to strangers.” My parents actually gave us the exact opposite advice. They said, “Talk to strangers.” And who they were talking about were the people sitting in our dining room because my mom didn’t have a chance to graduate high school. She had this arranged marriage where she was sent off from Hong Kong to live in Detroit, never got to pursue her education. My dad went to community college for two semesters, never finished, because he had to also work in that family business. So they didn’t really know what opportunities existed outside the four walls of that Chinese restaurant, but they knew they had this dining room full of people who did. 

Anytime my dad met somebody who he thought had a cool job or just seemed really happy, he called all six of us kids to run over and barrage these customers with questions. “What do you do for a living? How did you get your job? How much money do you make?” That lesson, I think, has really guided my life in the sense that no matter what situation I found myself in, I’ve always had an ability to talk to people, to meet strangers, to find people who are different from me. I really thank my dad for giving me that gift of not being afraid of people who are different than me. I would say that’s probably the most important lesson.

Rachel Phan: I think, for me, and it’s a lesson I didn’t learn until recently, was that love doesn’t always look the way you expect it will or that you want it to. Growing up, I didn’t understand why my parents were so absent, why they were always working. I didn’t understand why we couldn’t do things that normal families could do. Why were we eating dinner at 10:30 PM when other families ate at five? Why could my parents not attend my talent show? Now, as an adult, looking back and seeing how hard they worked, and you know that they’ve put their bodies on the line to provide a life of abundance for all their children. And for me, that’s been the most powerful lesson to learn — that they were loving us the entire time. It didn’t look the way I wanted it to look as a child but it’s given us everything, so I’m really grateful for that.

Evan Kleiman: And I am so grateful that both of you agreed to come and do this joint conversation. Thank you so much.

Rachel Phan: Thank you.

Curtis Chin: Thank you for having us. I love meeting and hearing the stories of other Chinese restaurant kids. There’s always this kindred spirit. So kudos to you and your family, Rachel.

Rachel Phan: And to yours, too. I’m so in awe. Also, I googled it and chicken balls seem to have Canadian origins, so that explains a lot.

The Phan family, joined by Rachel’s partner, Michael, pose for a photo together in their restaurant, China Village, in 2017, moments before the start of New Year’s Eve dinner service, the busiest night of the year for the restaurant. Photo courtesy of Rachel Phan.